WhenWillYouGrowUp

Vitenka particularly likes the passive voice one - though that's ore about responsibility than maturity.  (And also, it tells him how to get Microsoft/Word to shut up about it!)  --Vitenka

I like them, although one of them in particular incites the 'if that's what growing up is, I don't want to' reaction - the one about maturity being letting go of all the ideas and dreams created during growing up. And another point, which I'll put below.. - SunKitten

This is also true for dogs. Modern dogs exhibit behaviour similar to that of wolf cubs. As one Usenet contributor put it, 'Dogs are retarded wolves.'  Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily. Trainable, docile dogs are rather more use than independantly-minded wolves - SunKitten

• I often find myself looking back at things I've done/said (even only minutes after the fact) and thinking "I can't believe I did/said that - surely I should know better by now?"  This suggests to me a distinction between who we believe ourselves to be and who we really are.
  
• "WhenWillYouGrowUp?" is usually a phrase that gets fairly liberally flung around the place, and usually indicates not much more than "When will you think the same way as I do?"  Particularly on newsgroups and in emails, where not seeing the other person face-to-face usually means that you are ruder to them than you ever would be in RealLife.  But even in RealLife the principle applies - I spent JuniorSchool? thinking how childish my fellow students were for giggling about boys all the time, and doubtless they thought I was childish for not joining in.
  

Surely it means also that they used to think that way?  Or that children in stereotype think that way?  I agree with what you're saying, but you don't say "You're worrying about arthritis and complaining about needing hip medication?  Oh ForGoodnessSakes?, WhenWillYouGrowUp?"  --Vitenka

Well, I think, generally, people don't accuse other people of being childish because they're doing something that you used to do, but rather because they're doing something that, gut feeling, they don't think is compatible with being "mature".  Whatever that means... so it's not unbeliveable to accuse an OAP of being childish when they're being pig-headed about something and refusing to have a decent/mature conversation instead. --M-A

• Inevitably, what is deemed to be "GrownUp" or "childish" changes through the ages, and between different cultures.  Also, there are different stages of growing up, not a big dividing line that you cross when you hit 21.
  
• There is a well-documented trend towards extending teenage lifestyle and culture both earlier and later in life (i.e. it starts earlier and finishes later).  I can't find the article I read on it, but it made for interesting reading.  One example of this is the SitCom? Friends - my grandma watched an episode of it recently, and said at the end, "Those actors are much older than the characters, you know - why don't they get some younger actors?"  She honestly believed that the characters were meant to be about 20, rather than the 30-odd that the storyline would have us believe.
  

They are?  Really?  --Vitenka  (If you can find that article, it'd be great, BTW)

[Here's] one, for example.  Google brings up quite a few pages for relevant searches. --M-A

Good points - but have you stopped liking, oh, I dunno, TomAndJerry? cartoons?  TheDarkIsRising??  CuddlyToys? (PlushyCthulhu springs to mind...)  I guess that's a slightly different question - have people grown up as well as stayed young?  --Vitenka

I wouldn't say I've stopped liking them; but I would say that most of the time, given a spare half an hour, I would get a lot more out of ScrappedPrincess or LastExile than TomAndJerry?, and I strongly suspect the reverse would have been true twelve-fifteen years ago. - MoonShadow

Which, like most of the Japanese cartoons mentioned here, seem from their descriptions to be teenager-oriented rather than actually adult; indicating growing up to some degree but not exactly fully (I've only ever seen/heard of one  Japanese cartoon that really worked on an adult level, the excellent Perfect Blue; I'd be interested in hearing of more).

BTW, where in LastExile do you see teenage crushes, precisely? ScrappedPrincess does contain one, I'll grant you, but mainly, I'd say, as comic relief from the more serious subjects it deals with. - MoonShadow

Based on the Wiki page, it looks like a 'gimmick' show where the idea is to gawp at the 'coolness' of the technology and the world in which characters have crazy Knight Rider-like adventures, rather than to actually say anything. Not that it can't: Firefly makes a good stab at blending action-adventure, weird world, and actually saying things (though it's not perfect, not by any means), for example. But it's rare that something for which the best description depends on it being 'steampunk' has much else to recommend it.

I suggest you watch some. Technology is not its main thrust. - MoonShadow

It sounds like GraveOfTheFireflies and NowAndThenHereAndThere would both be to your taste, as would AngelsEgg, SongOfTreeAndWind, RoseOfVersailles, BrotherDearBrother.. - MoonShadow

Kind of a separate topic that - though definitely a good point.  ScrappedPrincess is close, many anime have parts that are properly mature and need thought - but almost all quickly follow it with a bit of zany slapstick.  WingsOfHonneamise? has no non-art elements, but it also examine no taboo topics.  I'd also suggest the RurouniKenshin?/OVA unless having SwordFights? inherently kiddifies something.  --Vitenka (bear in mind that it has actual history element, rather than far off myth)

HaibaneRenmei is a perfect example of something that starts off childish and delves into very adult waters. RevolutionaryGirlUtena contains a lot of teenage crushes, but is both a childish show about swordfighting and elephants, and an adult one about psychology and growing up. - MoonShadow

I don't believe in an 'adult show about growing up'. By definition, adults are grown up. They don't need to read or watch coming-of-age stories; they've already come of age. The concerns of a story about growing up are fundamentally adolescent concerns (again by definition). That's not to say that such themes can't be interesting, but adults have other, more important concerns which are not addressed by reliving the growing-up process.  --ChiarkPerson

ISTM that stories of "growing up" or "coming of age" are amongst those which get the best reviews in Western cinema by adult/serious reviewers (one of the film review columns I read the most is the FinancialTimes?, for no other reason that it's often left lying around the MathWorksKitchen).  So while it may be that adults "don't need to read or watch coming-of-age stories" as ChiarkPerson says (and the issue of DoWeNeedStories is a different one for a different page), it seems that such stories are amongst the most interesting to read/watch from the POV of mature audiences in the West...  --AlexChurchill

Introspection / Retrospect are never of value?  Over done, perhaps - certainly not the be-all and end-all, but worthless?  Harsh.  --Vitenka

I don't believe I said anything nearly that strong.  --ChiarkPerson

Hmm, rereading, I guess that you didn't - but the "adults have more important concerns" certainly suggests that growing up is of lesser value.  Then again, the original thrust of this page was about the value of growing up.  After all, I've seen a billion growing up stories, and don't see it as something I've been through.  --Vitenka

Stories about growing up are of lesser value... to those who have already grown up. Not no value; but there are more immediate concerns. That can't be contentious? Those stuck in adolescent limbo by their own choice are not who I'm talking about.  --ChiarkPerson

ChiarkPerson: I can fully see where you're coming from now, I think. I disagree with you, but I am not sure whether this means much or not - ultimately, while I can say to you that I enjoy watching things "about growing up" and like watching a lot of things I do precisely *because* they don't accurately describe the humdrum mundanities of my day-to-day life, I suspect that all that this would prove from your POV is that I myself haven't grown up yet. Which I don't think I object to: if growing up means only enjoying the mundane and everyday, and only liking that which is relevant to the mundane and everyday, I don't want to be it. We are at an impasse. - MoonShadow

I'll certainly agree with 'lesser value' - but most people don't do things solely for their value.  Perhaps the world would be better if they did.  Or perhaps if the converse was true.  Anyhow, you seem to have hit upon the nub of my argument.  Whether you call liking such things 'not growing up' or 'growing up in a different way' - there is clear evidence that in quite a lot of cases it is happening, and that those who it is happening to like it; whilst many others, certainly many of an older generation, do not approve.  So - is it a real thing?  Are you the CounterExample, someone who uses wikis but has GrownUp?  In which case, it'd be lovely to get a view of what you think of the phenomenon - is it real, is it bad - and why (is it happenning / is it bad)?  --Vitenka

There's the rub, isn't it? Is it not growing up, or growing up in a different way? Is it growing up while still being able to enjoy childish things, or is it clinging onto childhood so that you never actually develop into an adult? Individual cases can be argued about, but there is a lot of the latter. As for whether such clinging is bad... Imagine someone who as a child likes sweets, and so keeps eating sweets, and as a result cuts themselves off from a vast range of experience because they never aquire more sophisticated, more rewarding tastes. But they still  like the sweets so you might say they never know what they miss, so who cares?  --ChiarkPerson

That's an interesting argument. Can you back it up with examples of fun adult experiences you enjoy that I, as one who hasn't yet grown up - after all, I enjoy coming-of-age stories and stories with teenage main characters - am missing out on? - MoonShadow

I don't know you, dear sir, so how can I know what you miss?

Generalise, as you have been doing. You suggested above that people such as me are missing out on experiences; I am asking you what those might be. - MoonShadow

('Tastes' shouldn't be misinterpreted to mean simply tastes in entertainment or food, but also for instance social relationships or self-understanding).  --ChiarkPerson

I doubt anyone here would make such a mistake, except to deliberately annoy.  But you've raised a point we already discussed, with no conclusion - and which sparked the wonderful CloneD546/TheNewTune  Is it inherently bad to avoid one experience in favour of another one?  Is it possible to say that WantSweeties? is inherently worse than WantSocialRelationship? - might not both be worth deep examining?  Are early desires actually simpler - and if so, are they worse?  Is it right that a connoisseur of sweeties is looked down upon, whilst a connoisseur of wines is looked up to?  --Vitenka

ChiarkPerson: Would you say that a taboo subject has to be discussed in order for something to be adult? - MoonShadow

Why would anyone sensible say that? I would however rule out the teenage crushes that seem to be the extent of interpersonal relationships in Japanese cartoon as being 'adult'. Adult means Six Feet Under or The West Wing, not Buffy, the Vampire Slayer or Dawson's Creek.

Would you say DonnieDarko is adult? What about WelcomeToTheDollhouse? StandByMe?? - MoonShadow

DonnieDarko is an interesting case; I think I'd go down on the side of it being 'adult' because I saw it as more about Donnie's mental condition than just general teenage 'nobody likes me I'm not popular I wonder if he'll go out with me' angst. But it's arguable. The latter I haven't seen.

I see the point here.  KareKano isn't exactly mature - it's squarely aimed at teenagers.  But it still deals with relationships in a more mature way than LoveHina.  Taboo was a bad way of expressing what I meant.  Especially with things like LegendsOfTheOverfiend? being most definately taboo, yet also incredibly immature.  Yeah, I know, overfiend is Anime's MillStone?, but you see what I mean.  The way a subject is approached is definitely as important as the subject in question.  But I don't think you'll ever see a mature and deep cartoon based on the subject of "Godzilla is attacking, the SuperHeroes? can do nothing, but here comes MyLittlePony to save the day!"  --Vitenka

(PeterTaylor) I see it kind of the other way round: when you reach adulthood, you're sufficiently mature to drop the pretense of teenagerhood that you no longer enjoy a board game.

Yes, I can sympathise with that. While in Canada, I was lucky enough to pick up a double-ended red lightsabre, a la Darth Maul. I found it great fun to play with (I was about 20 at the time, I think). The 16-year old boy who led our team told me that it was immature. Was I immature to play with a child's toy, or was I mature enough to not care about what people thought of me doing something I enjoy (which is what I told him)? - SunKitten

Rachael thinks the following quote from CS Lewis is relevant here: 'When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness.' I agree with him. And with SunKitten.

Whilst I personally think that not caring about other people's reactions is a good thing, I must say that I see such claims as potentially being at least as false as denying that you enjoy something just to look cool.  --Vitenka

If I understand you correctly, that's only true if you do care about what people think of you while doing the 'immature' thing, and you just say you don't. If you genuinely don't care, I don't see how that can be as false as denying enjoying something in order to look cool - SunKitten

Sorry - yes.  Assume that (at least most of) those who deny they enjoy things to look cool actually do - I see the claim of not caring what people think as being at least as often untrue whilst deliberately provoking such reaction.  --Vitenka

Interesting.  The question now occurs: If people do honestly find themselves bored by board games, or find coming-of-age stories get old, then naturally we shouldn't call that immature in and of itself. What is true maturity, in this context, then? Being able to allow other people to enjoy what they enjoy even if it differs from you?  --AlexChurchill

PeterTaylor would say that sounds like a mature attribute.

It occurred to PeterTaylor this morning to wonder how many people think Kasparov should grow up and get a proper job. I'm guessing not many.

Why's that interesting? I would have thought that saying "A lot of people insult all Magic players for _" in a context in which there are a fair few Magic players would provoke some kind of defence of _. In this case, _ is "playing Magic".

Good point, empathy seems to be a determining factor.  I'd add that there have been many studies done that a large proportion of techies (who a large proportion of those this page was initially discussing are) have some amount of the symptoms of Aspergers (or similar) - including a lack of empathy.  Question then becomes - cause or effect?  Are people diagnosed as being non-empathic becuase they stay 'immature' or are they staying immature because they are 'non-empathic'?  --Vitenka

Not so sure.  It is possible to be quite empathic and yet hopeless socially.  Being able to comprehend that someone is massively upset by something does not mean that you are equipped to help them.  Also it may be interesting to note that a (total) lack of empathy (and hence also understanding what is good or bad from another persons point of view) is a a fairly fundamental definition of a psychopath.  Not all techies / geeks / geologists like me are psychos, given to lying for personal benefit or indeed generally violent, if anything just the opposite, albeit "a bit odd" compared to "normal society".  What can be said about me is that I like playing card / board / role-playing / war games and I'm not ashamed of it.  I do not bow to that social pressure of it being perceived as geeky / strange / pitiful / just plain odd whereas a lot of people I knew at college did when in the presence of the rest of the herd.  I do not force other people to enjoy my hobbies - that denies the point.  If people will take the mickey out of me for something I enjoy, but which doesn't harm them in any way whatsoever, then I ask do I really want to know this person? --Jumlian

But what else does one lives for? Before one was born, the world might as well be never exsisted, and after one is dead, the world might as well be ended as well. It seems that the point to live is to enjoy life as much as possible, i.e. the world revolves around one having fun. -ColinLeung

Wow.  Even I didn't go so far as to advance that view.  Talk about a FlameMagnet?.  We can call it Hedonism?, I think - and keep the AfterLife? arguments elsewhere.  Even taking the premise as true though, I don't think I can accept it - without a radically altered definition of 'fun' anyway.  I've also introduced a split since the first point (lack of empathy being a defining characteristic) hasn't been considered here.  So 'What else does one live for' - You can advance that 'fun' is whatever you choose to live for (bad phrasing, but the reverse is ambiguous) - at which point yes; and you go back around to Grow-up meaning 'you choose a different value set to me'  And then we start discussing the relative value sets of pure hedonism using childish toys over, say, altruistic evangelicism.  And I don't see a way to rationally discuss that.  --Vitenka

Oops, sorry, got slightly carried away there... probably showed how immature I really am. ^^; -ColinLeung

I think that's a non sequitur as far as the point Colin is making is concerned. Given a personal choice of things to do that don't affect other people, some of which are "fun" and others are not, which are all branded as means of entertainment or relaxation, children usually appear to put the "fun" criteria near the top when making their choice, whereas adults seem to see that as immature. I think Colin is saying that if this is true, he does not wish to be an adult. - MoonShadow

Is the point, then, that a child puts 'doing fun stuff' ahead of 'doing other stuff that other people wnat me to do that is not fun'?  As in - not choosing other leisure pursuits, but giving up leisure pursuits - devoting less time to them?  That sounds like the BritishCurse? and surely isn't sufficient?  However little time is spent playing MyLittlePony, it should still be spent doing something 'better'?  --Vitenka (These examples get stranger by the minute, don't they?  UtterFlutterPower?!)

The world see me being excited when I'm turning a pretty card board sideways to be childish. I see myself commanding a huge dragon (MTG: Rith ,the Awakener) to take someone's head off. Isn't the aim in life to enjoy it? How much more joy would being a adult offer me? Does not growing up affects my productivity in anyway? By not being childish the joy per cardboard ratio is pretty low. -ColinLeung

Explain why those are bad things for the child in question?  --Vitenka

Whilst a child, they are not inherantly bad, as those around them realise that he'she is still a child, and so has an incomplete understanding of the world.  The danger comes if the child gets older, is perceived by those around them to be an adult, but still believes the world works along black-and-white principles.  Much misunderstanding and hurt often results. --M-A

Hmmm.  Have we not had a big discussion on that book already?  Leaving aside that it's more what a reader gets out of a book than what the author puts in, I thought it more a treatise about the natural action of people without a social system.  (And a touch of the horror of unbridled human nature) Nothing about it seemes to matter that they were children, except to make it more horrific and that adults would have had preconceived systems making their deterioration slower.  --Vitenka

''Have mortgages, pay bills, hold down a full-time job? I do hope not, despite the fact I've found myself using those in discussions with people who insist I haven't...  --AlexChurchill

Ah, but is grown-up-ness something that you demonstrate by what you do, or is to do with the way you think and your attitudes to things? --M-A

I would consider maturity a mindset or set of mindsets. It is often characterised by certain things, like having children and/or a mortgage, holding down a full time job or getting married, for example. However, I think it's possible that one may do all those things and not be mature. The things do not make maturity, only signify it. What maturity *is* is something less tangible than behaviour, and might differ from individual to individual. I would say, at a guess, that an ability to empathise is a sign of maturity, as is not being so worried about what other people think of one. But they aren't themselves maturity - in fact, they are signs just as working and paying the mortgage are. They're probably better signs, but they don't themselves make maturity. And the result of all that is, well, I don't know. It's a rather hand-wavy topic, I think - SunKitten

And I forgot, but I was also going to say that maturity is not binary - I suspect that most people are a mix of maturity and immaturity depending on the subject of conversation/attitude - SunKitten

On re-reading this, quite carefully, it appears that no-one who posted anything to this page ever thought that anyone was immature because of the leisure activities they chose.  A couple of people claimed to have encountered this attitude outside of the wiki, but that's different... --M-A

Uh.. yes, that's literally true - no-one's directly accused anyone of being immature; but a number of people do (or did) definitely think some leisure activities are (were) "immature" (I myself could probably make a list of ones *I* think of as "immature"). The point is, what can this mean if it *doesn't* mean that the activity is a sign of "not having grown up"? And should this imply anything about people who enjoy the activity? And even if it did, should this mean such people should abandon such leisure activities or object to them? AlexChurchill and the Lark have addressed this issue to some extent.. - MoonShadow